My blog posting, “The Christian Atheist,” drew a comment from an old friend, Ken Burton, which you can read in “Recent Comments” (below, right, on this page). He mentioned in passing the “oxymoronic” nature of my phrase, “Christian Atheist.” I wrote to him separately about that, but the subsequent exchange is one that we thought might be appropriately reproduced here. Perhaps others would like to join in the conversation. (Since we are both named Ken, I have identified us as KA and KB.)
KA Response to Blog comment from KB:
As to the contradiction in the phrase, “Christian Atheist,” I agree that on its face it is nonsensical. Let’s imagine that Jesus lived (and I’m sure someone like him named Jesus did) and that at the time his followers saw in him what they knew as and named God. They then decided he was intimately related to this God in a way that they understood to be like that of a father and son. In turn, this understanding led them to see Jesus himself as part of the Godhead. Etc.
Time passes. The mythic understanding of Jesus as God becomes harder to sustain. For me, for example, I begin to think that a Jesus without God is actually less difficult to imagine than a Jesus who is God. Like Buddha, he is a teacher–call him Master Jesus–but also like Buddha he can be followed as a human teacher. It is not necessary to posit a God to meditate on Jesus or to follow his way.
The problem is that Jesus is not Christ–and Christian incorporates an understanding of Jesus that insists on his being God, a resurrected being. But the way we understand Jesus, Christ, and God is encapsulated in Christianity; to make my point, I really need to use the word “Christian” to emphasize that we’re talking about the same Jesus here, that there is a continuity between the Way followed by his disciples after his death and the Way I think we need to recover that
eliminates the God barrier between.
KB:
Living out Jesus’ Way is nearly impossible for us flawed human beings. There is some evidence that Jesus had trouble with it himself. It becomes possible only when we are grounded in a transpersonal source of love, knowledge, and compassionate forgiveness, following, in this way as well, the example of Jesus. This “God” is not a “barrier” to living out the Way of Jesus but a necessary facilitator, although that is not the best description. This is not a defense of traditional Christian doctrine, much of which I agree is not defensible. (And I think you should be careful about attacking an Augustinian straw man! The Roman church and TEC [The Episcopal Church] may be hung up there, but many other Christians are not.) But it is a defense of my own lived experience, both of my major personal limitations and of God’s gracious and empowering love that
sometimes enables me to follow the Way despite my finitude.
One more thing. The problem that occurred with the passage of time was that the mythic construct got reified, that is, it came to be regarded as literal truth rather than mythic truth, as discursive prose rather than lyric poetry. So long as it is properly understood as myth, there is not a problem with the God image. That is not to say that it does not point beyond itself to something “real.” But whatever, or whoever, that is, we cannot know. At best, we can “see in a mirror, darkly.”
KA:
True. The literal is at the root of the problem.
KB:
But if you agree that “the literal is at the root of the problem,” doesn’t that undermine much of your argument? You’re no “Christian atheist” but a Christian believer whose understanding of God has gone beyond traditional dogma, or has gone back to Scripture!
Another take is to agree with George Fox that “these things I knew experimentally” (experientially, in modern English). And my experience is consistent with the Way of Master Jesus, although maybe not with the views of his subsequent apologists.
Posted by kenarnold
Posted by kenarnold
Posted by kenarnold